It was a shame the man drowned. Saw the whole thing unfold from our balcony on Shoreline. I ended calling the police after seeing the man face down in the water. At one point a wind surfer who lives in these apartments approached the man out in the water when he was still standing and surfed away so I assumed he was ok. But not 20 minutes later the man walked further out in the bay and eventually went face down in the water. It was over 20 minutes before the good samaritan pulled him out, not sure why the police who were already at the scene didn't go in the water themselves. Very sad day. Keep us posted if you get more information.

Thanks

We were playing volleyball and watched the whole thong unfold. We saw the man wade out and watched him until the police arrived. He was standing in waste to chest deep water for more than an hour and we thought the 20+ police, fire/rescue and paramedics had it under control. It wasn't until we lost sight of him standing only to be followed by the realization that what we thought was debris was actually his body that we realized that collectively we had let this man die. He was never more than a couple hundred yards from shore. Had any of us known that he had gone head down, we easily could have made the swim to him. We thought the officials were looking out fir him. Clearly they were not. They watched him through binoculars for more than 45 minutes until he finally put his head down.

The title of this article should read: Alameda Police and Fire watch on shore and do nothing as man drowns.

I think it is absolutely unacceptable that something like this should be allowed to happen. Whether or not they are trained or if it's a jurisdictional issue, who cares. As humans, someone should have gotten out there and brought the guy in. Now, on another note, a friend who lives at the apartments across the street, did say that he saw the man and noticed that there was clearly a mental issue with the man. He said that there was definitely something not right about him.

The former Mayor and city manager are to blame. They cut the resources that would have given this guy a chance at being rescued.

Its a shame that these politicians put our rescuers in handcuffs and dont allow them to do the job that they want to do. Do you think they wanted to stand there and watch the guy drown? These politicians are so disconnected with the public and dont seem to care much about the services that we pay for. Glad we have a new Mayor and City Manager. Hopefully they will do the right thing.

In the news tonight it was made to be that our firefighters and police personnel "elected" to let this man die because they did not have jurisdiction over his rescue - the Coast Guard did. We need to know what the whole story is, because that just does not seem right, nor is it in keeping with our public safety personnel that I know. Can someone get to the bottom of this, please?

Hi Kate. The Alameda Police Department released a statement a bit ago: "Police and Fire commanders on scene called the United States Coast Guard for assistance. The Coast Guard dispatched a 25-foot propeller driven rescue vessel from Station San Francisco and a helicopter from Air Station San Francisco. The Coast Guard vessel was on scene in 20 minutes, but due to the shallow nature of the Bay at the individual’s location they were unable to get close enough to him to attempt a rescue. The helicopter arrived 65 minutes after notification. The helicopter had been on another mission and had to return to the airfield to refuel. The helicopter then had to request permission to enter the Oakland International Airport’s airspace before arriving on scene. Prior to the Coast Guard’s arrival to the individual’s location he lost consciousness and began to drift towards shore."

And more from the statement: "Other agencies contacted for assistance with the water rescue included the Alameda County Fire Department, Oakland Fire Department, Alameda County Sheriff’s Department, the Oakland Police Department, and the East Bay Regional Park Police District. These agencies were unable to provide any additional rescue capabilities. The Alameda Fire Department does not currently have, and is not certified, in land-based water rescues. The City of Alameda primarily relies on the United States Coast Guard for these types of events."

I also just spoke to APD's Lieutenant Joseph McNiff who had this comment: "This was a tragic incident that we wished we could have resolved in a different way, but we weren’t able to ... The Fire Department is not certified in land-based water rescue and the Police Department has never had a land-based water rescue certification and the Coast Guard wasn’t able to get him.”

He also said: “We reached out to all the other resources that we have available to us but again no one was able to get to him … Obviously there’s going to be a thorough review of today’s incident and we will certainly look at all our options in the future.”

Not certified in land based rescue??? You've got to be kidding! I'm not "certified" but can easily swim/walk out in the bay off Alameda and have done so since childhood. You don't need to be "certified". You need a freaking heart!!!! Alameda is surrounded by water and our local police/fire depts. won't rescue someone in the water??? People's heads need to roll. This is totally unacceptable, disgusting and frightening.

How sad. Working on an island with a good size beach and being "not certified" makes no sense for police and especially fire/rescue departments. I recall images of heroic officers and firefighters risking their lives to rescue flood victims from raging swollen rivers; victims who have fallen through frozen ice; car accident victims who have gone into the water from bridges...and no Alameda city police or fire professional could wade out from a beach and TRY to help the victim?

"The Coast Guard dispatched a 25-foot propeller driven rescue vessel from Station San Francisco and a helicopter from Air Station San Francisco. The Coast Guard vessel was on scene in 20 minutes, but due to the shallow nature of the Bay at the individual’s location they were unable to get close enough to him to attempt a rescue."

As I mentioned above, I was there the whole time and never saw a Coast Guard vessel, not to mention that a 25 foot vessel should have been able to get into the 4' water this guy was standing in. All any of us on the shore needed to know was that the rescue workers weren't able or willing to help and we could have waded - yes waded - out to him. He was never more than a couple hundred yards away. We were lulled into a false sense of security because the rescue workers were on the scene.

This was not a 'tragic inncident' this was ridicolous. What if it had been a child drowning? At some point it becomes a human being saving another human being.

I can't help but think what if this was a child? It seems unbelievable that our fire dept or police dept are
"not certified for water rescue" when WE LIVE ON AN ISLAND!!!! How can this be???? I say, GET CERTIFIED!!!!!
Even still, they should have let regular citizens around them know that they did not have this jurisdiction so that someone else could step up. There are kite surfers all over the place. Regular citizens have the right to go out and try to help rescue someone... If they were worried about a lawsuit... I imagine they will get one now, sad to say... How incredibly lame... and did I say sad?...

Update to the story: APD or AFD don't have the proper cleaning equipment should their uniform get wet from the salt water, thus they were not able to assist in the rescue.

These are our saviors? In the past few years we have watched these Super Heroes that get great salaries along with pensions that us tax payers pay for. In these past few years we have watched this Police Dept. make mistake after mistake.... For example - Killing 2 police dogs (one was pure neglect by leaving the dog in the car), WE AS CITIZENS WOULD HAVE BEEN ARRESTED IF IT WERE US! They won't even let us know which officer let him die. They have only solved the obvious murders here in town. We have officers who solicited themselves as prescription drug collectors , Oh by the way- What ever happened in that case? This is just another screw up which we will get every excuse in the world, Typical . About this Gentlemen at the beach...Has anyone read the memo that we do live on an Island and there has been and will be other rescues involving water? This has got to be one of the worst forces that I have seen. Extremely embarrassing to Alameda. Our condolences to the Mans family. This should have never happened. The truth of the matter is they need to go back to training to learn.

I'm glad the man is no longer suffering from the mental anguish that drove him to take this final action. He's out of pain now.

The vast majority of our city budget goes to pay for police and fire. It is completely unacceptable that our highly paid police and fire officials can only stand by and watch while a man drowns in a few feet of water. This is not only a black eye for our public safety departments, but for the entire community.

This is a perfect scenario for Alameda's fire boat rescue unit. Trained to rescue on the water, and right at home in the Estuary. Oh, wait. It was decommissioned due to budget cuts.

En jay aitch, I understand your concern about losing things like the fire boat rescue unit to budget cuts, but it sounds obvious that a boat is not what would've helped here. If this happened in waist to neck high water 150 feet offshore than a couple of rescuers (cops, firefighters, EMTs, SOMEONE) would've sufficed. Unfortunately it was probably this kind of jump to use excessive resources that got the unit cut. (and the high pay, benefits & pensions of police that never get cut. I'm usually more reluctant to bring up firefighters since they have more use & put themselves in danger far more than your average cops.) though if there was this kind of unit, where are all the trained officers?

I can't add much to the previous comments, except to say I am stunned by the news. I, too, am a native Alamedan and have always enjoyed our "island lifestyle." Key words: Island. Water-based recreation. Boating. Beaches. Shallow water. I know we don't maintain a lifeguard service, so you play and swim at your own risk. However, a reasonable person would expect a response, even if delayed, from local first responders who would know what to do. And, since it can be very hazardous when good Samaritans risk a water rescue, onlookers who are not strong and experienced swimmers should not go in. I don't understand why these first responders didn't make use of the available flotation devices and the strong swimmers wind surfing nearby. Surely some of these folks would have been glad to assist the professionals in any way they could. I will be following this story carefully -- this is a dreadful event that should have had a different ending. And, it's beyond shocking that a citizen had to retrieve this poor man's body. Unbelievable.

To have a safety force for a community surrounded by water that is not even trained in basic water safety is horrifying. This is a death that should have been prevented, instead of watched for 90 minutes. These are the same police and firefighters that consume more than two thirds of our city's budget and demand to be paid nearly 90% of their salary annually after they retire in their 50s and continue to not serve our community.

After a showing like this and the FISC fire in 2009, among other regular embarrassments, it's time to let Marie Gilmore and City Council know that Alamedans deserve better for our tax dollars.

Tell the city manager. they are the ones that cut the program. remember her? she apparently didnt care that we live on an island and she cut the water rescue program. maybe you should actually find out whats going on in our city and who is to blame.

This is a horrible scandal calling for investigative journalism like DATELINE or 20/20! Public safety employees must stop worrying about whether they have "permission", or "jurisdiction", or are "certified". If you know how to swim & are strong enough to pull someone's head above the water, JUST DO IT!!! You certainly get paid enough! I'd also like to believe you have a moral compass that doesn't depend on what the mayor or city manager might think! I hope this isn't related to the fact that most public safety employees live inland, not on an island like Alameda; which may result in their feeling morally disconnected from our community!

I doubt the public safety employees "worry" about what the mayor or city manager "think". its not a popularity contest. the politicians run this town and we should blame them for not making a us have a water rescue team. after all, it was the politicians that said they didnt want it. Do they live on the island?

I agree totally with alameda4life. Do not blame the men and women on scene for not "choosing" to save this man. What a horrible position they were put in. Most of us will never be in that kind of a position once that they are put in daily. They have to follow policy and procedures. Look to the root of the problem which we are, at this point, only making guesses. There will be a thorough investigation and the root of the problem will be addressed and it would be nice to stop making negative comment and judgments from our comfortable couches and desks as to what should have happened or not happend at the scene. We should come together as a community and support our safety officers and work on policies and procedures to support their ability to handle siatutions in the most productive ways possible.

Kate did not defend anybody. Kate said that she wanted to know the truth of the matter, because it sounded so unlike the APD and AFD people she knew. Kate also does not think that it is fair to excoriate all these folks as if every member of our police and fire services conspired to cause someone's death. That's pretty over the top, and unhelpful. Personally, I have found both of these public safety services to be professional and helpful and like the fact that they are there to risk their lives to protect me and my property. The INDIVIDUALS who were there and did not take action, for whatever reason, are those who we should be concentrating finding out the truth from, not tarring and feathering everyone.

Such a tragic event that happened. We live on an island...we should have firefighters, police and first responders that can make a water RESCUE!!! I am even more mad at myself for not knowing that we would not be rescued in the event of a water accident.....and we are surrounded by water....just seems like it can't be true.

Blaming Doesn’t End the Horror of Suicide

I am appalled at the lack of support that Alameda is giving our police and fire departments following such a tragic event. If this same man held a gun to kill himself, we would not expect police to wrestle the gun away. Why not? Because we understand that such a tussle would increase the chance that he would pull the trigger either against himself or one of his rescuers. Nor would we expect police and fire to wrestle the same man off the edge of a building. Why not? Because he would be more likely to jump and possibly take others with him. This tragic suicide is no different. This man was approx. 200 yds off shore in chest deep water, cold enough to cause hypothermia. He did not want to leave the water. A windsurfer got close enough to the man to speak with him, which only made the man move out deeper. If police and fire stripped down and swam to him, he may have moved even deeper, killing himself sooner; would our community blame police and fire for being too impulsive? And what if they did get close enough to talk with him?
(Continued in next comment)

For how long would we expect police and fire to stand there –twenty, thirty minutes- trying to talk him "off the ledge", out of the water? By then we would possible be grieving the death of multiple people; hypothermia is very real. And what if those same police and fire attempted to wrestle him onto shore from 200 yards out in chest deep water? He may have pulled several of them underwater with him just as a person killing themselves with a gun or jumping may take others who physically interfere. This was both a very tragic and dangerous situation. I am certain that the police and fire personnel at the scene are grieving that they could not save this man. I am also certain that Alamedans can raise above their own grief and horror of this man ending his own life without blaming our police and fire personnel.

Alameda Mom, thank you for such a reasonable and rational response. And for highlighting how complex every situation is that that the police and fire department responds to. And how the every day civilian can make such horrible and insulting comments of judgment when they don't know the complexity of the decision that was made? Why can't we as a community stop pointing fingers and work together on solutions. Why the need for such tremendous judgment and blame and persecution. Its not what happened yesterday that I find so disheartening, its the venom of the response.

Pensions come from PERS and the city does not pay pensions, only the contributions to the retirement fund. usually the agreement for the City to pay contributions is in lieu of a wage increase.

Alameda Fire Dept has 16 people whose earnings and benefits cost the citizens between $ 200,000 –$ 275,000 last year.Another 55 whose earnings and benefits were between $ 150,000 - $200,000.

The median expected salary for a typical Fire Fighter in the United States is $41,308.

I don't think pay or budget cuts the issue here.

Instead of blaming city policy, I would point out that the character of our police and firefighters is assumed to be such that action would be inherent, overriding bureaucratic consideration.

Karen Z, tsk tsk ... APD/AFD are not the saints you make them out to be. They make a pretty penny, their jobs are voluntary (nobody forced them to sign up) ... so the least we expect is to show some alacrity in situations such as these when a man is standing in water for nearly an hour and yet our "finest" let him die.

According to Lt. Sean Lynch,"...there are protocols that need to be followed."
How and when did protocols come before a human life? And when did they come before your own oath of protection? How is it that the correct action is more apparent to a 20 year old girl than to our trained agencies?
Be appalled Karen. Be appalled that men and women are so afraid of being sued or fired, that they will watch someone's loved one kill themselves and do nothing. When your son or daughter is in trouble Karen, and I am there, I will take action to help them, fully aware of the consequences that, if in the process I legally do something wrong you may sue me or cause me some other discomfort from my action.....however, your children will be still be alive. In this case, the truly appalling thing is that no one reasoned in love. Fear won the day.....

What I have said and stand by, is that it is unfair and harmful to people's lives to comment on the particular people who were at the beach, in the situation that they were in. It is impossible to understand the complexities of the agencies involved and the decisions that were made. To insult the particular men and women who responded and to question their character is the lowest response possible. I am saddened by what happened, I hope that the issues that led to this siuation will be firmly addressed and that appropriate protocol will be put in place asap to ensure that this never happens again. But, I do not blame the indiividuals who were present from APD for this situation. It is a much larger systems issue that needs to be addressed. That is where I stand. Oz? I think not. As a social worker, I feel squarely rooted in the realities of life. Oz would be more appealing, though, I think.

Hey, everyone. Let's cut the personal attacks. They are not useful and they are extremely unpleasant to most readers. Also, I am working on a story about some of the details of how the events unfolded yesterday, which I hope will help answer some questions. --Eve

New post on the incident at Aquatics Fan: http://webh.it/resc
Hope you don't mind me putting it here, Eve.

I emailed the mayor, the fire chief and several city council members last night. Today I got a response. See below. Everybody, and I mean everyb ody who uses and enjoys the bay waters off Alameda is at risk, and we didn't even know it. We didn't even know that if we got into trouble, no one would rescue us. Appalling. Absolutely appalling.

Thank you for your email regarding the tragic drowning at Crown Beach
yesterday. My thoughts and prayers go out to Mr. Zack and his family.
My heart also goes out to the members of the public who watched this
tragic event unfold, and to those who are rightfully upset by this.

We are in the process of conducting a thorough investigation of this
matter, and will do so in a public and transparent manner. More
importantly, the Interim Fire Chief is taking immediate steps to change
the department’s existing policy regarding shore-based rescue. In the
future, the Fire Department’s commander on scene will have the
discretion to send swimmers into the water as circumstances allow. The
Interim Chief is also putting resources into retraining and
re-certifying rescue swimmers so that they can be available in the
future.

Since Alameda is an island, we will likely face shore-based water rescue
situations in the future, whether intentional or accidental. We need to
consider how we want to allocate our resources to be prepared for such
situations in the future.

Again, thank you for your email.

What AlamedaNative said.

This is much bigger than this tragic suicide. It has just been revealed that their policy is: do not go in the water under any circumstances.

What else can't they do?

Jack they were all water trained until 2009. I'm assuming all the fire Department working Sunday were all New Fireman and didn't have the training.

Here's an interesting letter to the editor of the Alameda Sun in 2009 about water rescue in Alameda. It is the fifth letter down.
http://www.alamedasun.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5546&Itemid=11

Pleidianwaves: Please skip the taunts and personal attacks. It's better for everyone. --Eve

Many commenters here have revealed their ignorance of past city budget cuts by saying things like "buy a boat."

Some of the same people who are outraged by what happened Sunday are the ones who have publicly opposed raising taxes to pay for schools and other vital services. I would just like to remind them that they cannot have it both ways.

The 2009 budget cuts that eliminated the water rescue unit from the AFD were accompanied by an order from then-Chief David Kapler (!) that no one from AFD was permitted to go into the water any more, period. Similar cuts put the limited APD's enforcement-related craft into dry dock.

Jon.....Pardon my Ignorance...But Compensations of AFD that look like this don't really look like they affected the pockets AFD.

Alameda Fire Dept has 18 people whose earnings and benefits cost the citizens between $ 200,000 –$ 275,000 last year.Another 55 whose earnings and benefits were between $ 150,000 - $200,000.

If we made total Compensation for all Members of AFD 100,000K we could save enough to actually have New pools to train kids to swim and probably have fleet of boats . Considering National Average for Firefighters is 41K and 3/4 (750,000+) of Firefighters in USA are volunteers.

Let's not be distracted by KZ who wants to shove this all under the water. The truth is AFD didn't even attempt a rescue, not even get their boots wet. Not a single individual in that fire or police department had the heart to even
TRY to save the man's life. Blah, blah 'we lacked certification', blah, blah, 'protocols to follow' - how do these people at AFD sleep at night knowing they did nothing, they didn't even try.

It's about as heartless a story I've ever heard. And KZ continues to blow her trumpet for AFD and APD. Let's have some of these mislabelled heroes come forth and give their names. That's all, just tell us who they are, so we and their neighbors in their communities will know who they are.

By the way, KZ, the "we" I refer to is in the overwhelming response of compassionate people.

It is far too easy for any of us to judge and criticize what we view as others' shortcomings after the fact. And many of the critical comments here seem to be cheap shots taken at others' expense. Is that what the posters intended?

I think a bit more compassion (as voiced by Alameda Mom and Karen Zeitzer) and a lot less judgment from those who have NOT walked a mile in the moccasins of the public safety personnel who were prohibited from rescuing someone they were sworn to protect. Let's find a positive solution to this glaring problem, folks.

It also appears that many of the more critical commenters here have no understanding of the phrase "chain of command," which is a key component in public safety agencies around the world.

Making personal attacks on anyone, including our public safety personnel, is extremely counterproductive. They were not the ones who cut the water rescue and certification programs from Alameda's budget, and they did not oder themselves to never go in the water again. Ask former Chief Kapler (remember him?) and those responsible for making the budget cuts instead. Just remember that they are all human beings, too.

The rationalization of all this is more pathetic and is as sad of what actually happened. We count on these people to step up and they didn't. Spin it anyway you want but it's a tradgedy not only in what happened but in the actions of people the Citizens count on to trust in an emergency.

Jon Spangler your Alameda Mom and Soccer Dad masks are getting very old. I know you and the bride are paid spinners but sometimes best to put down keyboard.

Stand up for what is right, even if you are the only one in Line!

That is what this 100 lb Female Nurse did that no one else seems to comprehend.

We indulge generous and early-out retirement programs for police and firefighters, nominally in exchange for the physical challenges and risks that are inherently part of the job. When the assumptions underlying this exchange are shown by non-performance to be lies, it is time for an aggressive recalibration.

The mindset needs to be changed. Cleaning house and hiring a whole new Fire Department that actually feels part of the community and a responsibilty to its citizens versus the I , I , I, Me Me Me ,Mo Mo Mo, Money Money Money mantra they have been singing burying the citizens of Alameda who have sacrificed anything of any value in the city to take care of them with Huge Pensions and benefits. Very Sad situation.

The change that is needed is (and was) a simple change in policy that has already been effected. No wholesale
firings or dismissals are required, just the policy change and the budget restorations needed to re-institute the previous water rescue training and certification program. What about these straightforward changes does not make sense to you, a94501er and John?

What happened was most certainly a tragedy and it was avoidable. All quite true.
I realize that public floggings crucifixions are popular, but they are a terrible way to run a civil government. (They are far more appropriate under a military occupation, but you would not want to live there, would you?)

I want to live where people Stand UP for what is right and do what is right Jon. Rationalizing and making excuses is your world. Does Common sense and just being human need to be policy. Doesn't Firemans oath mean anything?

“Fireman's Oath:

"My duty is to protect those that I serve from whatever danger they may face; whether it be fire, demon, or angel; no matter the danger, I will protect the people to the best of my ability. I am but a servitor of the people; my duty is to those who I serve, and to no one else. I serve The People, without fear, without remorse, without fail. My Duty is to The People. By my Fireman's Oath, I am bound to protect those who are in danger, those in times of need, those who I would serve."”

So this is different Jon Spangler.

"I am not a shill for anyone, any more than you are."

JON M. SPANGLER

EXPERIENCED COMMUNICATOR, MARKETER, & ADVOCATE

Edited and proofread campaign mailers and web copy for winning Alameda City Council, Alameda County Board of Supervisors, and AC Transit Board candidates on rush deadlines. Wrote and revised forms and web copy for small businesses. Researched and wrote articles for Alameda Municipal Power newsletter. Edited monthly newsletter for East Bay Bicycle Coalition (2007).

I don't buy the lack of training funds argument. There's been plenty of cash to dramatically increase salaries and pensions. Maybe we could have used some of that to maintain programs?

This is not a matter of "budget restorations." At these pay levels, we must demand that so-called public safety agencies work efficiently and effectively within the available budget. Shoveling more money into a broken system, only encourages the system to remain broken, but at an even greater cost.

Jon Spangler lives on Rationalzation Circle Tom. It is around the corner From Accountabilty Lane. There is always a resonable explaination and Jon has it. Your just missing it.

Beachgoer,

Actually, it IS a matter of not only changing a n AFD policy but also restoring the $40,000 or more that is required for AFD's water rescue training and certification program. Those funds were cut in 2009 and the money to restore the necessary training and certification has to come from somewhere. With looming budget deficits and cuts all over the map being required, where would YOU find the money? It has to be done, since nothing that a public safety agency does can be done without proper training and certification.

Well, I believe the lesson here is that if we ever find ourselves in this situation again, where we don't actually "see" our system actively working for us, we can then let down that false security because the paramedics and police are there and do something about it ourselves.
It is very sad to know there were 75 onlookers, and they all stood around and watched this man die...probably due to the fact that so many fire trucks and police were around. They probably thought it was all under control. I have the feeling that this man may have lived if AFD & APD never showed up. I have the feeling that perhaps many people would have gone to Mr. Zack's aid. I can only hope.
Next time - HUMAN CHAIN PEOPLE....HUMAN CHAIN.

I've decided to take a break from all of this because I no longer saw it as healthy debate but personal attacks and low blows. After a refreshing break I am back for a quick minute to highlight a pattern that the people who are making personal attacks are not using full names, the people who are trying to have a healthy debate do. So, I propose that all use their full REAL names and lets see if it changes people's tones. Francis, thanks for your comments. Hey Tiffany, do you want to lead the way?? "Slapped", Really??!!

I concur Karen. I think the tone of posts - not just on this thread - but Alameda Patch as a whole would change if everyone used their full names. For me, reading these posts as well as the posts to the companion article - what I sense is that most of us have the utmost respect for our firefighters and police officers in this town and feel shock that this situation occurred - in part because they have always served us so well. When I took a CERT (Citizens Emergency Reponse Training) class in town in the Spring I learned for the first time we no longer had a fire boat and that water rescues were covered by the Coast Guard. I was surprised by this and at the time thought I should write a letter to the City Council. Now, I wish I had. In the class it was presented as a budgetary decision made by the City.

Oh and one more thing Tiffany, I feel quite passionate also. I don't use my passion as an excuse to behave badly. No matter how passionate I feel, I am still responsible for my behavior at all times. No excuses. Its called personal responsibility. You can't take back words and they become a true reflection of who you are in a moment in time. If we were sitting across a table sipping coffee together, eye to eye, you might show a very different side to you. I'll hold that as a distinct possibility and give you the benefit of the doubt. That is why I encourage people to not hide behind a code name so that they are not being true to who they would be in person.

And one more, one more Tiffany....I responded to "Jenna" that there is a tremendous difference betweeen ending pain and ending life and encouraged no one to be "glad" that he is "out of his misery" because help is available to anyone suffering, anyone in pain- to feel better and to get the support they need to not see suicide as the only out. And I listed resources.... Not compassion in this situation Tiffany?? Lets be done with our back and forth now. I'll put up the white flag..how about it?

Here is some new info - a quote from his mother & info about timetable for new training for personnel

http://current.com/news/93258516_after-firefighters-watch-man-drown-alameda-agrees-to-reinstate-water-rescue-training.htm

Full interview with Raymond Zack's mother
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/nationalbreaking/ci_18186732

At Karen,

The human link could have spoken to Raymond....what we don't know is if he really wanted to die. I believe that if you want to die then you should have that right as a human being. I also know that if Raymond Zack was my family or my friend I would AT LEAST have wanted our first responders to do that, go out and talk to him, and yes I would have been proud (as someone that could never swim in the beach) to have been the last link...to know that death is what HE wanted....

@Margaret, Unfortunately the Alameda FD personnel on the scene were prohibited by a 2-year-old policy from even entering the water after the budget for AFD's water rescue training and certification had been cancelled in 2009 budget cuts. The firefighters would much rather have tried to save Raymond Zack's life but were under orders to stay out of the water.

I know several firefighters and paramedics in the AFD and I cannot imagine any of them wanting to stay out of the water, be uninvolved, or watch a man die. This, too, is a tragedy that should have been avoided but was not.

Jon, I appreciate what you wrote and...actually I am more upset at myself for not knowing this was the policy.

With that said I have also read the Oath that Firefighters take, and I read there job description. They needed to do something....and with the job description, which is Alameda's ..... it clearly states "water rescue"....I have no doubt that the family has already heard from lawyers that would love to take the case.

it wasn't too long ago when we worried about our lack of school funding that was going to bring down property value in our lovely island city.....I think that the national news we are getting on this matter will make that happen...no matter how great our schools are.

Alameda County has a Search and Rescue Team of over 70 member which are trained in water rescue, they have on going training all the time for this ( check out there website). Police and Fire know about this yet nothing happened !!

All of are Firefighters who were hired before 2009 were trained in Water Rescue. Trained and acting are two different worlds.

Well, the FFs who were hired before 2009 did not suddenly forget how to swim when the budget was cut. And the woman who finally did bring the man in was NOT a trained water rescuer, either! A word about nom-de-plumes:(if it was good enuf for Mark Twain, it's good enuf for me!) Writers who do not use their real names are not cowardly. They do it to direct attention to their ideas rather than to themselves. They're not out for personal aggrandizement.

P.S.: All they needed was a surfboard, not a boat--short distance, shallow water! And when is someone going to publicly apologize to the family? Both Chiefs Noonan & Fisher (who each make more than $300,000/yr; according to Patch) stood @ the podium in the 5/31/11 CityCouncil mtg for ~1 hr, & all they did was make excuses & ask for more money from the City! Neither Chief Noonan nor Chief Fisher apologized to the family. The Mayor did not apologize. The CM did not apologize. Unless I missed it. Saying it "will never happen again" is not an apology to that man's mother.

Eve, how about a policy of removing comments from people who don't post their full names?

NPR's "All Things Considered" carried a story on the tragic incident last night:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/storyComments.php?storyId=136864398&pageNum=1

I hope all the armchair critics of the AFD personnel who were at Crown Beach will keep in mind that AFD trucks would not have any water rescue gear on them following the issuance of the water rescue/water entry prohibition in 2009, and that an unprotected rescuer (no wetsuit or drysuit) would only have about 15 minutes in the water before succumbing to hypothermia herself/himself. That makes trying to talk someone back to shore really problematic even for a willing firefighter who is unprotected and unequipped...

Jon Spangler, please quit with the rationalizing ... that is extremely insensitive to the family. You ought to know better.

Alameda (like most municipalities) is starved by over-payed, non-performing bureaucrats with huge pensions. Bring back the volunteer fire dept, I'm sure they could figure out how to wade out to the guy and throw him a life ring.

Jon Spangler,
It is sickening to read your defense of these cowardly public servants ( yes, that is exactly what they are! ) , that stood around doing absolutely nothing , while a man that obviously needed help , was drowning within feet of them. They where informed in advance by the mother of the victim,( yes victim), and they knew what he was trying to do. To say now that they where afraid of their own safety is cowardice and men like this should never be in the police or fire dept. There are many people who have saved lives of fellow citizens in very dangerous situations and they where not trained to do so. They are called HEROES !! Our overpaid public servants should hang their heads in shame , Alameda is being talked about in the whole country and not in a positive way.

Pleiadein, John, and a94501er,

Your mantle of self-righteous criticism and blaming might be a bit easier to take if you had any empathy at all for the public safety personnel involved who wanted to help but could not. (I grieve for the survivors and mourn for the dead just as much as you do, and recognize just as clearly as you do that this tragedy should not have happened. Why can you not accept anyone's response to this tragedy other than your own as "correct"?)

Alameda PD personnel are not trained at all (never were) in water rescue, and deserve no blame for not jumping in the water. Alameda Fire personnel had their training, certification, and equipment pulled out from under them, so when this incident came up their hands were tied and they did not have the gear to effect a safe rescue.
How do you think they felt in that situation? Do you have any empathy for them or are they simply to be condemned in your opinion?

(Your previous comments tell me you would rather condemn than understand them, which is far from charitable or kind on your part. It is your selective empathy, your selective outrage, and the ease with which you blame others that separates us. And that saddens me, as there are many victims here and you are creating more with your armchair blaming.

From a website called "Lifeguard 4 Life"....
http://www.lifeguard4life.com/2011/06/first-responders-watch-man-drown.html

Lifeguards deal with suicidal people often. People jump in front of trains, off piers, drink themselves to death or just walk into the water and hold themselves under water. Lifeguards are not to risk their own life while attempting to rescue a suicidal victim from train tracks, but we are trained in how to stay far enough away from a victim that we are not in danger. With a floatation device life a lifeguard buoy, lifeguards are able to stay above water while fighting to get the unwilling victim to shore.

I don't have any sympathies for the presumably hurt feelings of APD/AFD. A man died on their watch and he is not coming back (try telling that to his 80+ year old mother).

APD/AFD have cushy pensions to look forward to (heck, they probably even received OT for all the standing around they did on the beach) ... while the poor mother has lost her son.

You must be a cold-hearted machine if you can't see the human element here. Get off your pontificating horse for a change.

Saying they were not trained is such a lame excuse. If they had any initiative or brains they would have run over to Big 5 and found countless items that would help rescue this guy. Instead they are lazy, overpaid bureaucrats who would rather watch someone die. Why are we paying for this?????????

2009: So with a red pen in hand, the then Fire Chief Kapler lines out water rescue training saving $40k in a jurisdiction completely surrounded by water. After lining out the item, he goes to the station house and tanks up is BMW. The City Manager consents to the budget cut and sneaks out working for another city.

2011: The interim Fire Chief quickly reinstates the training the day after the incident. Now everyone is waiting for the multi-million dollar lawsuit.

Using the training excuse is the easiest way out. Three or four or even more could have donned PFD, tied to each other and waded out there. No one wanted to get wet on Memorial Day weekend. For that, the city will need to settle a major $$$$$$$$ lawsuit.

Think out of the box. Google "Lenny Scutnik video"

Karen Zeltzer,
Who do you think will do the investigating of this sordid affair? The Mayor , Bonta , Tam ? Are they not the ones that benefited from the mailers during the last election that came from the fire dept.?
As for Jon Spangler, there is a name for people like him, lets just say he wants to be in with the powers to be at the present time and does his darndest to ingratiate himself , he has no human compassion and you don't seem to have any either.

Well, I can't say I didn't try! Personal insults make people's potentially valid points disappear, its a shame. Many of you may have swayed other's opinions, including mine , had many of you decided to present your point of view in a productive, informative way instead of clouding it in personal attacks. I have tried to consider different points of view and I have learned somethings from these ongoing dialogues, but I guess I am done reading all of this as the personal insults and negative attacks no longer makes this productive. I hope that the investigation is fair, I hope that positive changes will come from this and that public safety is improved. I also have Raymond's famiy in my prayers as well all others involved in this situation. Bye y'all.

Privatize the fire service now or better yet, go to an all volunteer force. How can we even begin to justify overpaying (and offering gold-plated out-of-market pensions to) these firefighters when they've made it perfectly clear they will cower behind self-serving work rules at the public's expense? I'm tired of overpaying these consummate bureaucrats. This has to stop now. Stop dealing with the union; they don't deserve a say in their compensation. People deserve to be paid for what they deliver, not what they can wrangle from the public trough by threatening/buying politicians. For what our fire service has delivered , they should be writing checks back to the public.

Yeah Karen let's just all be quiet, let them investigate themselves and maybe it will all go away. Not going to happen, people are feed up with this BS and the only way it will change is if we stand up to the incompetence and wasteful spending. Sadly it may take this event to be the catalyst of the return to responsible city leadership.

Karen Zeltzer,
You said you tried to smooth things over, over what? What you tried and it obviously didn't work , is to convince the Alameda people to your point of view. Just look how many people are responding and some of us very passionately, considering the severity of this tragedy. There are thousands more following this on many blogs and websites all over the country. The vast majority is condemning what happened here in our City. There was no attack on your character , just questioning your feelings toward the victim in this tragedy. We Alamedans have to live with this blemish on our town from now on.

Young Turks TV show video commentary on incident
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjqJaEpucDY

As an Alameda resident and parent of two young children, I am absolutely horrified as what happened. If a child was out there, are you telling me they wouldn't have attempted a rescue because of a policy that prevents them from entering the water? I'm sorry, but we LIVE ON AN ISLAND PEOPLE!!! If we can't rely on them to assist in a shallow water rescue, what's going to happen when a real emergency occurs?

I'm taking this as a wakeup call to all of us who believed that our well paid Police and Fire departments could manage a shallow water rescue at Crown Beach!!! Also, it's frightening that people are making the convenient assumption that he intended to commit suicide when obviously we don't know that 100%. If people can assume suicide, I guess I can assume that maybe this man with mental illness was crying out for help and noone came. A sad day in Alameda.

Ona....This was a Real Emergency to Mr Zack and his Family. My thoughts and Prayers are with them.

OK. I got tired of reading all the personal junk on this thread. I have one question that may have already been asked. If so, I apologize. Somewhere I read that "under no circumstances" was AFD allowed to enter the water to effect a rescue because they were not certified in water rescue. If this is true, would they call the Coast Guard to rescue a child who waded into the water and was drowning? I'd like to think they would risk the legal liability and just do it. I think the real reason they didn't act was because the victim did not want help, period. That this could be a matter of facilitating a suicide is a whole different sorry. As far as I know, Oregon is the only state that permits assisted suicide.

I was walking at the beach listening to my ipod when I came upon the crowd of emergency personnel staring into the water. I didn't think anything serious was happening because no one went into the water. All I could see was (what I thought of at the time) was a large orange buoy floating offshore. I continued on my walk towards the bayfarm bridge. When I returned a half hour later everyone was in the same position. A kiteboarder went out near the buoy,circled around it but didn't communicate with the emergency personnel. I didn't ask what was going on because there were children playing, families having a picnic etc. I didn't think this all would be happening if a person was out there dying. I'm just as guilty as any other bystander for not trying to help and maybe I didn't ask because I didn't want to know. In any case, what if the person out there wasn't a 280lb man, but a child or a suicidal teenage girl? Would everyone have stood there and watch a child or teenage girl die? What would you have done? All I know is I was there and I didn't do anything.

Hi Susie,

You might have been listening to the same music the AFD was listening to.

I drove by twice heading to Friends and was sure the Fire and Police were doing the right thing and had it under control. I have never doubted their Service to Alameda and considered alot of the old ones Family. They have been great to us. I don’t agree with the Compensation Packages that have escalated out of control and have now put this City in Financial Peril and now seeing this makes me frkn Sick.

I wish to point out a well-known medical fact I'm surprised the police did not know. Antidepressants themselves, (especially the newer ones) have SUICIDALITY as a side effect so marked it appears as a boxed warning (cf Cymbalta ads/ product insert). So the victim could have been appropriately medicated & still suicidal; a danger to self, which the police are supposed to be trained to deal with. News reports say this man's condition was known to public safety personnel from an encounter on the same beach last year; apparently he wasn't violent or threatening to them then; which makes their behavior in this circumstance even more inexplicable.

It seems to me that writers who use a full 1st/last name are almost always apologists for the status quo. (apologist=one who makes apology for or defends; status quo being the people in power, incumbents). Why?
c. gottstein, M.D.

Dr Gottstien.

They want to let them(Politicians know) I will defend you, please don't take away my funds for my programs or cut my salaries . I will kiss your frkn Axx no mater how wrong you are or how bad you look or how stupid you sound or act.

Does anybody know the name of the courageous lady that went into the water to get the poor man? What happened after she pulled the man out, did the police talk to her ? She is the hero in this whole sordid affair.
She certainly deserves a medal.

The apathy, cowardice, and inaction in the death of Mr. Zack are maddening for bureaucratic incompetence and individual idiocy! Standard police motto "To protect and serve?" Yeah.
APD and AFD patrol an island!! Lack of training for water emergencies is absurd. For would-be criminals: need to excape APD? Just go to the water, they don't know how to go after you.
This response couldn't have been more opposite to what's expected from those who've earned the uniform.
We assume our folks in blue have basic physical fitness & preparation for problems anticicipated on an ISLAND. This case had neck deep water for a 6'3 man. Coast Guard was improperly briefed about location water depth so they brought the wrong boat. Nearby Oakland emergency responders were never asked to send proper equipment & aid. Think water rescue of the unwilling too dangerous? The 20 year old female who ultimately delivered the 300 lb body to police-men, did it alone - 4 or 5 strapping lads, allegedly fit for duty, armed with PR-24 batons & required restraints, would have had no more difficulty.
APD: plenty of training to hide and trap anyone turning left on Park at 4:01 pm, troll for drivers going 3-4 mph over the 25 mph crawl limit, & gather for coffee and snacks in cafes. But a man intentionaly drowning in front of them? First responders did anything but act first or respond.
APD just stencil a new motto in your squad room: "To reject action and observe," because you can't be bothered.

I understand (please correct me if I was given false or outdated information) the Oakland Fire Department has a boat docked right over on Pardee Street, I would think that a call to that Department within the first 5 minutes of the Alameda Fire Department 's realization that they would do nothing...would have saved Raymond Zack's life. No FIRST RESPONDER should allow a citizen to die on there watch!

Nominate an Alameda Hero ...this is on the Patch....they are looking for nominations for "hero's" .....I have posted there that the young woman that pulled Raymond Zack out of the water as the APD and AFD did nothing....should be our city's hero for this year......

So it's been 4 days since this tragedy happened...we are, all over the country, mourning Raymond Zack, feeling for his family and waiting.....still waiting to hear from our "authorties" on the initial findings of their so called "transparent as possible investigation". There is nothing! I believe that most of us here have uncovered more details and shared them with the masses than the frickin "Mayor" or anyone else upstairs.
I know...it's difficult to climb over the mountains of money they sleep on every night. Those pensions, and making sure they don't ever go away, is a lot of hard work.
So what's the initial investigation? I'm sure yall could have figured that out within the first 6 hours of conference time. Come on ladies and gentlemen...share with the community of Alameda, who pay your checks, what you've found. Transparency means to see through...funny...I don't see anything at all???

Lots of discussion here too :-

http://statter911.com/2011/05/31/alameda-ca-firefighters-suffer-image-blow-as-they-watch-man-drown-dave-believes-without-training-equipment-they-shouldnt-have-been-dispatched-to-the-call/

http://firelawblog.com/2011/05/duty-to-act-needless-drowning-in-alameda/

The police state they did not attempt to intervene because the victim was potentially unstable and violent. After the victim became unconscious, I doubt he was any threat. Certainly, the young lady who pulled him in as they watched did not view him as a threat.

Joel - I'm not the person who wrote the letter to the editor in the Alameda Sun. I was quoting from it, hence the quotation marks. The Alameda Fire Dept isn't "hiding behind paperwork". They are PROHIBITED from attempting a water rescue. Their boss told them that they are not allowed in the water. Now all the other people standing at the beach could have. They were not at work.
And no, you are wrong, not assisting someone in danger is not punishable by jail time in any country that I know of.
Maybe you should read this article from another EMS blogger:
http://thehappymedic.com/2011/06/rescuers-stand-by-while-man-drowns/

It’s a frkn sand bar going out hundreds of yards. Fisherman have to go out a long ways just to get hip deep. 60 degree water isn’t like rescueing an Ice Fisherman. Anyone who has any clue about Alameda knows this. It's been like this for 50 years.

The 10 Year contracts implemented in OCT 2001 and the months following in the absolute worst financial times our country has seen since the Depression and we offered Lifetime Pensions of 90% of highest pay and medical benefit and salary packages that have crippled the citizens of Alameda and the city. Most companies at this time were cutting salary's and Benefit packages 50% and laying off just to survive and implemented self directed retirement plans with very small contributions by the company.
The Taxpayers have given up alot of "Skin" and the City has deferred most maintance using duct tape and mirrors to keep sustaining these Salary packages to our employees.

Look at what it has gotten us.

In October 2001 when this was approved the Tech Bubble had already popped and Stocks and The Nasdaq Market had Lost 80% of Its Value and All Tech companies Were laying off thousands. To not be aware of what had transpired in previous 12 months to this regarding economy and what was happening and go ahead and approve raises and new benefits to employees was HUGE Betrayal of the Citizens of Alameda.

Look what we have been rewarded with after 10 year contracts.

After watching the city Council meeting the Day after this tradgedy the approach at the Budget looked as cowardly as our Cities Finest performed on Monday.

It is sad amd pathetic where we have gone as a city. I use to be a very proud Alamedan.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/57061124/64385-2009-03-16-Fire-Info-Bulletin-1762

The memo that the fire department used to justify its actions on Memorial Day also contains information - for those that read all the way through to the bottom of it - that contradicts what the department has claimed.

Specifically, it says that funding has been re-instated, and that re-certification was to begin again in 30 to 45 days - two years before Raymond Zack waded into the water at Crown Beach.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/06/03/INN11JOD18.DTL#ixzz1OKFdqHNG

AlamedaAngel, I hope youre not a public safety official! Youre dead wrong. If anyone's boss prevented them from doing the moral thing in a life/death situation, the boss should be ignored. Only following ordersb is for Nazis @ Nuremberg, or robots.

Alameda Angel :
Should I see someone bleeding and laying in the street , should I turn my lawn mower on so I can't hear the cries and maybe wear some dark glasses until the death come ?
That is basically what all the braves did that day ,, when all they had to do was to walk on the sand bar .
Oh but the boss said you cannot get your feet wet and it is against the union contract to disobey to save a life .

We've paid our public "servants" ridiculous salaries for too long, and for what? An ever entitled attitude and continuously worse performance.

The voters need to make it clear in every local election: We will not fund another cent of government revenue until we stop wasting money on these bloated, overpaid union bureaucrats. The private sector will do the job for about half the total cost (the market probably dictates a slightly lower salary, but with a 401K instead of the bloated gold-plated, spikeable pensions that kick in at age 50). And they will do it better because any private sector employee to declines to do his or her job (standing on the beach and watching a man drown for the better part of an hour) will have no union to hide behind and will be shown the door.

Better yet, volunteer fire service. I will sign up.

There are 10 of thousands brave Americans that have seved this Country some paid the ultimum price , they gave their life for this Country , other will be cripple for life and some Courageous fighter came back Home with no jobs some no House , it is time to reward bravery and hand over these City Jobs to Citizen that deserve it , not some cockey pararading in a red truck blasting their sirens to get their latte at starbucks , or their lunch at Towne Center.

If the APD and AFD are not certified in water rescue on a island, maybe they shouldn't get paid soooo much!

Oakland Tribune (S.J. Merc News) article today looking back on the incident

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_18211068?nclick_check=1

Beverly Johnson claims that an outside investigation is in order and what findings "can be" made public, should be made public. Key phrase, "CAN BE". How politiky is that? Get ready for the candy coat.

to montel , kate , jon spangler , you keep contradicting yourselves , You stated that after 15 minutes a person would succomb of hypothermia in the frigid water of the bay , knowing the type of medication depress person take {you can look them all on the net they all have the same secondary effect} they did not try after 15 minutes , 30 minutes 45 minutes nor 1 hour , they had the hypothermia factor at their advantage , It is now proven that he was not armed or dangerous , anyone could have yank him out of the waist deep water as the small Wooman did , bring him to shore and lock him up until he got his medication straight , itb is also proven by the Police records the scene was clear , they never call the san leandro rescue , not the county , 2 boats fully equiped and crew ready for shallow water rescue the big cheese public statement .
That tragedy could have been avoided in many way ,
simple effective communication .
and more important having having Firefighter and Police Officer leaving in the community , in short be part of it . We now have aliens working in the City , take their GPS away they wont know east from west .

It's been one month today since Raymond lost his life here in Alameda. God bless you Raymond. God bless you and your family and community that weeps and misses you. We will never forget....

THE ZACK FAMILY 12-07-11
I have just skimed over these comments for the first time ,
Thank You for your heartfelt love and expressions of sympathy.
We all thought he was safe in Alameda.
Your concern and dialogues has restored my faith in humanity.
Thank You not letting this tragedy pass un-noticed.
Sincerely, Mr.Zack