.
Feedback

Why We Pulled Our Sons Out Of Scouts

Should parents allow their sons to be Boy Scouts and work from within the organization to change it or pull them out entirely?

 

Local Boy Scout troops are out in force this week selling popcorn, as part of their annual fundraising campaign. A group of cubs along with older scouts and their mothers were assembled Saturday in full uniform selling a variety of snacks in front of Peet's Coffee on Park Street in Alameda.

I had a chance to talk to some of the mothers about why they kept their boys in scouting, in light of revelations of abuse within the organization and the ongoing position of the national Boy Scouts of America organization against the LGBT community.

Those with whom I spoke seem to believe the organization's positive aspects still outweigh its many controversies and that they hope to work from within scouting to change its policies against gays and lesbians.

One parent did, admit, however that the national scouting headquarter's stance on the LGBT community has cut into their popcorn sales this year and that the public perception of the Boy Scouts has shifted.  She was quick to explain that the money raised from the popcorn sales (unlike scout dues) stays here in the local community and is not passed through to the national organization headquartered in Texas.

When I shared my concerns with the parents about the Boy Scouts' stance on gays and lesbians I was offered a chance to sign a petition they had at their table and register my disapproval.  My husband and I happily signed it and stated our reasons for not supporting Boy Scouting. Sadly, we were the only names on the petition (although it was early).   It was only after I told them my feelings about the organization that they pulled it out and said I could sign it. They were not actively soliciting signatures from everyone who passed by.

Our sons are now 19 and 22. When they were much younger we enrolled them in Boy Scouts. My husband had participated in scouting as a child and it seemed a natural thing to do.

At some point early on we learned of the homophobic stance taken by the national scouting organization and we made a family decision to withdraw them from scouting altogether because of it.

We have many people in our circle of friends who love our children who just happen to be gay or lesbian.  How could we, in good conscience, have our children wear the uniform of and participate in an organization that so openly discriminated against the people we cared about?

At the time I wrote a letter to  local newspapers about our decision to withdraw our sons from Boy Scouts. There was some backlash.  A couple families never spoke to us again.  But, overall we felt supported in our decision. (Our sons grew up just fine, by the way, and participated in many other non-discriminatory youth programs in the community.)

Probably most importantly, some years later one of my sons' close friends came out as gay. His mother has since specifically thanked me for our personal boycott of Boy Scouting.

Those mothers out selling popcorn with their scout sons may be making the right decision for their boys today.  It is conceivable that working from within scouting to push for a change in its policies may be a better tactic than pulling  your child out of the organization altogether.

In either case, I think it is important to tell your sons (in an age appropriate way) that you are taking a stand against the national Boy Scouts' policies of discrimination against others.  It could be the most important thing they get out of their scouting experience.

David October 22, 2012 at 03:57 pm
Cynthia, because "3.5 million middle class families" refers to race? Workers' paradise refers to race? playgrounds for rich? favelas (a Brazilian word for a shantytown)?
or is it just your fevered imagination?
David October 22, 2012 at 04:10 pm
Cynthia, yes, who cares what a private organization requires of its members. It's your choice to join them or not. For me, I usually apply the Groucho Marx standard: "I'd never be a member of a club that would accept me as a member." As for taking public money, yes, by *ALL* means, let's take public money out of Scouts. And Planned Parenthood, NPR, PBS, and *all* so-called grants to charitable organizations, etc. Then you don't have issues like this or this:
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/CSU-foundations-mixing-public-private-funds-3255024.php As for jobs, you're kidding me right? http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_71.htm 225,000 Californians moved to Texas over the past decade. Indeed, Texas received the largest net share of young families (i.e. not retirees) of the states with a net in-migration of former Californians. Young families move for economic reasons-jobs. Marga, as recently decided, private clubs that are religious can have equal access to the public schools as any other club. Separation of church and state is actually *not* in the first amendment, the prohibition against establishing a state religion is. To refresh your apparently stale memory: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
geordie October 22, 2012 at 04:12 pm
I am always grateful to Carl Sagan for taking the time to write down the most common logical fallacies in his baloney detection kit. The contention that "the UK established a religion, therefore the religion declined" is known as Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc, or after and therefore caused by. This is like saying "there was an earthquake because the As and Giants were playing each other in the world series". The one followed the other but the world series was not causative.
And "as for your apparent feeling...", that's called Begging the Question, you are stating that I hold a particular point of view. I re-read what I said and no, I never said that. Why do you believe I would? Is that the sort of simplistic argument people usually use? I wouldn't like to try to defend the argument that religion is a maturity issue. I don't care what people's religious beliefs are so I don't care to support any argument about why people are or are not religious.
Leah Hall October 22, 2012 at 04:30 pm
Geordie,
My family has been to England a number of times and we are members of the Episcopal diocese in Northern California. I fully advocate the separation of church and state, but I think it is the case that religion and belief do shape politics in many ways in Britain. Two primary examples that come to mind: --The Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England with the Archbishops of Cantebury and York Below her. (continued)
David October 22, 2012 at 04:31 pm
Ok, geordie, when someone says XYZ "grew out of it" there is *no* implication that the prior state (religiosity in this case in England) was an immature one, and given time, ABC will also "grow out of it." If you can't tell, that's sarcasm.
Leah Hall October 22, 2012 at 04:34 pm
-- The Anglican church power and influence extends globaly. Here's what I found on Wikipedia regarding controversy around what I consider to be homophobia within that church....
"More recently, disagreements over homosexuality have strained the unity of the Communion as well as its relationships with other Christian denominations, leading to another round of withdrawals from the Anglican Communion. Some churches founded outside the Anglican Communion in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, largely in opposition to the ordination of openly homosexual bishops and other clergy are usually referred to as belonging to the Anglican realignment movement, or else as "orthodox" Anglicans. In some ways they represent a stronger opposition because they have the backing of many member provinces of the Anglican Communion and, in some cases, are or have been missionary jurisdictions of such provinces of the Communion as the Churches of Nigeria, Kenya, Rwanda, and the Southern Cone of America. Simultaneous with debates about social theology and ethics, the Anglican Communion has debated prayer book revision and the acceptable grounds for achieving full communion with non-Anglican churches. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_church#Controversies
Marvin H October 22, 2012 at 04:58 pm
There is nothing legally wrong with private clubs establishing their own standards for membership. So there is nothing legally wrong with BSA saying gay and atheist youth can't join. They don't have to let girls join either. If they wanted they could limit membership to whites, or Mormons, or Martians for that matter. It might not feel morally right to someone but it is legally allowed. Freedom of association in a private organization.
The choice then is do you support them by letting your children participate and do you support them by donating time, money, facilities, equipment, etc. If no one supported BSA they would change or go out of business. Anyone who does support them and still thinks that they are not aligning themselves with the discriminatory practices of the organization is choosing to look the other way. There is no indication that there will be any "change from within." If you support them then you are personally discriminating against anyone that BSA discriminates against. It's pretty simple and straight forward. To think anything else is just self delusion.
geordie October 22, 2012 at 04:58 pm
Hmm, missed that. Ho hum. The studies I am aware of compare intelligence and education to religiosity without any clear and safe conclusions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_education
But anyway, where is the evidence that establishing a religion makes a country less religious?
Marvin H October 22, 2012 at 05:12 pm
Great post Carol. You are to be commended for taking a stand and choosing not to tacitly support an organization whose actions you don't believe in.
Don't listen to all the haters.
Leah Hall October 22, 2012 at 05:44 pm
Marvin, to believe that there will be no "change from within" possible one has to ignore numerous examples showing the opposite outcome. Let's consider gender and sexuality within the Episcopal Church:
Gender and sexuality In 1976, the Convention declared that homosexuals are "children of God" and "entitled to full civil rights". In 1979, the Convention endorsed the Equal Rights Amendment and urged legislatures to ratify it. In 1988, the Convention reaffirmed the expectation of chastity and fidelity in relationships. In 1991, the Convention restated that "physical sexual expression" is only appropriate within a monogamous "union of husband and wife". The Convention also called on the church to "continue to reconcile the discontinuity between this teaching and the experience of members", referring both to dioceses that have chosen to bless monogamous same-sex unions and to general tolerance of premarital relations. In 2000, the Convention affirmed "the variety of human relationships in and outside of marriage" and acknowledged "disagreement over the Church's traditional teaching on human sexuality." In 2006, the Convention affirmed "support of gay and lesbian persons as children of God"; calls on legislatures to provide protections such as bereavement and family leave policies; and opposes any state or federal constitutional amendment that prohibits same-sex civil marriages or civil unions." (continued)
Leah Hall October 22, 2012 at 05:45 pm
In 2009, the Convention affirmed that "gays and lesbians (that are) in lifelong committed relationships," should be ordained, saying that "God has called and may call such individuals to any ordained ministry in the Episcopal Church." The Convention also voted to allow bishops to decide whether or not to bless same-sex marriages.
In 2012, the Convention approved the use of an official liturgy to bless same-sex couples and their marriages, called "The Witnessing and Blessing of a Lifelong Covenant." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_(United_States)#Gender_and_sexuality
Cynthia October 22, 2012 at 05:50 pm
"And Planned Parenthood, NPR, PBS, and *all* so-called grants to charitable organizations, etc."
Those organizations don't discriminate against individuals based on sex, gender, race or orientation. However, BSA does discriminate against orientation. "As for jobs, you're kidding me right?" Nope. A lot of us young folk are moving to California for jobs in the Bay and LA right out of college. Found a tech job in the Bay and took it since there were scant in other states. My classmates are ending up moving to California for a variety of other positions because the need is here.
Marga Lacabe October 22, 2012 at 06:05 pm
I think it's impossible to compare the United States to other countries in terms of religion. The United States, after all, was founded by different groups of religious fanatics (or so the story goes) and has been fertile ground to fanatical religions ever since. Today over 1/4 of the US population define themselves as "evangelicals" and are not associated with mainstream churches - pretty much all of them could be considered religious extremists. If you add to them religious extremists within the Catholic church (which I imagine are a minority, but seem well represented among bishops), historically black churches and Mormons, you end up with a very large population of religious fanatics. I don't think any other Christian country has anything close to those percentages.
Most other Christian countries have had a "state" church - initially the Catholic Church in Western Europe, one of the Orthodox churches in eastern Europe, and later one of the flavors of Protestant churches in central/northern Europe. State religions can become fanatical from time to time, but they can't afford to stay like that for long: fanatical ideologies, by definition, cannot allow the flexibility needed to deal with changing circumstances. So over time, they liberalize and become more tolerant. Evangelical churches don't have those pressures.
Leah Hall October 22, 2012 at 07:02 pm
Perhaps in some ways, and yet I think it is impossible not to compare the impact of religious influence on the world stage.
Many believe, for example, that the flare up of hostility (including a proposed death penalty) towards some gay people in Africa has been fueled by visits and teaching of Evangelical priests from the US. There is also an attempt this election year to divide members of the African American community in the US along religious lines underpinned by deep conservative/political ties. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/12/coalition-of-african-american-pastors_n_1766777.html
x October 22, 2012 at 07:26 pm
So if a boy had absolutely no desire to ever be with a boy or a girl for their entire life time, and didn't think of boys or girls in "that" way ... would they be allowed in the boy scouts and be able to receive their badges?
Just curious. Really, it just comes down to whether or not you even want your kids (gay or straight) to be around such backwards KKK like people.
geordie October 22, 2012 at 07:47 pm
Why ever would you not be able to compare the US to other countries? It might not be identical but comparison does not require that the two things be equal. Many other countries have large immigrant populations, like the UK, France, Canada and Australia. What you imagine about the catholic church means nothing, I imagine the moon is made of cheese... well, not really. As a catholic I can tell you that the church is all about do as I say, not do as I do. There are some very good priests and bishops but there are also child abusers, drunks and the usual corporate types. How did a mafia banker, Roberto Calvi, come to be God's Banker and end up murdered and hanging from scaffolding under Blackfriars Bridge in 1982?
Since The Vatican is a state I think your argument that an established religion can not remain extreme does not hold true. Islam is the religion of countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and there's no sign of them becoming reasonable.
islandqueer October 22, 2012 at 08:31 pm
Eve, my apologies. I see now the productive conversations you are referring to. Keep up the good work.
Fred Eiger October 22, 2012 at 09:45 pm
KKK like??? What an idiotic statement. It's about whether or not parents want sexual deviants around their children.
Fred Eiger October 22, 2012 at 09:49 pm
And then there are Roaring Atheist Fanatics like Marga. Who have no problem being hypocrites and call those who advocate morality "fanatics" but extremists like herself and the ACLU are "accomodating" or "flexibile".
Fred Eiger October 22, 2012 at 09:51 pm
Marvin, I support the Boy Scouts because they are not going to bow to the pressure of sexual deviants. Plain and Simple. Nothing delusional about my support.
Leah Hall October 22, 2012 at 09:58 pm
Fred, you are behaving in a disgusting manner - truly Patch's turd of the month. Keep it up and you'll earn Patch's coveted Burnt Umber Turd of the Year award.
Strive high and be proud!
Fred Eiger October 22, 2012 at 10:05 pm
Sorry Leah, but you and your ilk are the ones acting in a disgusting manner. Pot meet kettle.
Marga Lacabe October 22, 2012 at 11:19 pm
Geordie, only your last sentence addresses what I've said, so that's what I'm responding to.
The Vatican is not a country, it's a building. I remember walking around half of it when I got off at the wrong bus stop and couldn't find an open door. Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship that only exists because of its temporary oil wealth. And leaving aside the fact that the official version of Pakistani Islam is not particularly extremist, I can't imagine anyone that would call it a politically stable country.
Marga Lacabe October 22, 2012 at 11:25 pm
David, "no establishment of religion" and "separation of church and state" mean exactly the same thing. If the state and church are united, a state religion has been established.
geordie October 22, 2012 at 11:41 pm
All that way and you still don't even know what you were visiting. To quote their web site "Vatican City State was founded following the signing of the Lateran Pacts between the Holy See and Italy on February 11th 1929." It is one of the four Sovereign City States meaning it is a country, just like Monaco, Malta and Singapore.
http://www.vaticanstate.va/EN/homepage.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City
David October 22, 2012 at 11:47 pm
Marga, you just prove my point.
No state church allows for various religions to "compete" for believers. State-run churches don't compete, and atrophy. Hmm. Kind of like public vs. private schools. Or private vs. state-run industry. Weird. I know you can't take a lesson from that, but I continue to try. You may have a deathbed conversion after all.
Leah Hall October 23, 2012 at 12:40 am
Cool, this means I will get a Patch award too, I guess! :)
Leah Hall October 23, 2012 at 12:54 am
Hey Voter,
I think you might have inadvertently reinforced the sentiments of the writer of this article. The public should not provide free spaces to those who would descriminate or persecute citizens for who they really are. A lot of gay people have helped my family out in numerous and unexpected ways. I feel sorry for those who close themselves off via bigotry. The boy scouts are making a big mistake.
HeresWhereMyNameGoes October 23, 2012 at 01:03 am
Fred - I commend you for having the courage to so readily admit your stupidity, ignorance, and bigotry. My sympathies, though, to those around you that must endure those traits up close and personal.
David Mills (Editor) October 23, 2012 at 01:03 am
Thank you everyone for your comments. We feel everyone has had their say, so we are closing comments on this story.

Newsletter & Alerts

Get the best stories each day and important breaking news

Subscribe

Not from Alameda Patch? Find your Local Patch »

Note Article
Just a short thought to get the word out quickly about anything in your neighborhood.
Share something with your neighbors. Write a new post... What's up? Make an announcement, speak your mind, or sell something
Harve Coats June 14, 2013 at 09:17 pm
Woke me from a dead sleep. Sounded like 6 or 9 gun shots north of Melrose on Maitland DR.
David Howard June 15, 2013 at 02:08 pm
APD said they found no evidence of gun shots and suspect fireworks.Read More http://www.action-alameda-news.com/2013/06/09/fourth-of-july-public-service-announcement/
JSanders June 17, 2013 at 11:55 am
When they build that high density development on the Harbor Bay Club site with 25% low incomeRead More housing requirement, Bay Farm will be hearing a lot more gun shots at night.
Analisa Harangozo (Editor) June 12, 2013 at 11:42 am
So sad to see. Did you report this to East Bay Regional Park District? I provided the number in yourRead More last posting.
Lorraine Sarullo June 12, 2013 at 12:35 pm
Yes, I reported it to the EBRP staff who happened to be nearby at the beach. I also reported it toRead More the warden of Fish and Wildlife in Sacramento and the warden of the local territory. The local warden told me yesterday that he will be patrolling the area, but I did not get to speak to him today (only left both wardens a voicemail message).
Analisa Harangozo (Editor) June 12, 2013 at 04:11 pm
Nice, thanks for the update, and sharing these posts with us, Lorraine. If it is a person behind allRead More of this, hopefully he/she will get caught soon.
Carol Parker June 12, 2013 at 12:00 pm
Anonymous tip to the fire department?
quietneeded June 12, 2013 at 04:17 pm
Leaving a note to them is a bad idea if it really is a illegal operation. So many ways that can goRead More wrong. Just call the police dept. Leave a tip. Simple and safe.
Analisa Harangozo (Editor) June 13, 2013 at 09:03 am
Agree with Carol. Perhaps an anonymous tip to Alameda Fire or Alameda Police.
Alex Gronke (Editor) June 11, 2013 at 07:35 am
My condolences to Mort's family. This was a man who had a rich, full life. Thank you for sharing.
Nay June 11, 2013 at 09:24 am
Given the targeted harvesting of parts, this is not a "times are hard and food is scarce"Read More issue. It's greedy, ignorant, and yes it's disgusting and disrespectful to nature. http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/extinction-countdown/2012/01/17/manta-rays-endangered-by-sudden-demand-from-chinese-medicine/
Lorraine Sarullo June 11, 2013 at 04:13 pm
Thank you both (Nay and Analisa) for the information. Maybe I got the name of the park serviceRead More mixed up. It was the beach area around Grand St.
Lorraine Sarullo June 11, 2013 at 11:18 pm
I contacted Crown Beach (part of the EBRP). They checked into the matter with Fish and WildlifeRead More (previously Fish and Game), to see if there was any wrongdoing. On the surface of things, it seems the wings (fins) are the edible part of the ray. And apparently, the way regulations are written it may not be even be considered littering! So, however inhumane, disrespectful, selfish, gruesome it may seem, there may not have been any fishing laws broken. Although, when I spoke with the warden of Fish and Wildlife he said he will be looking into the matter. To voice your opinion and propose changes to regulation, you can write a letter to and attend a Fish and Game Commission town hall meeting here is the link: http://www.fgc.ca.gov/contact/ and http://www.fgc.ca.gov/meetings/2013/index.aspx I plan on writing to suggest regulation against polluting public beaches with unused portions of the catch from fishing and also ask for recommendations on limiting the catch on fish that only have small percentage of edible parts (such as the rays). I would welcome any help in a letter writing campaign, the contact information is listed on the link provided above. Many Thanks.